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Quin.
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Quote:
| Matt wrote on 05-09-2017 09:47 AM
Sorry, I was writing a slightly softer version of my previous post but got way-laid by a client.
"Rubbish" was in response to "it makes even more of a mockery of voting for Brexit".
Here's the follow up:
Perhaps to temper my reply a little bit, we've been the pariah of the EU for years, focussing on our unique requirements to the detriment of the rest of the EU and ever closer union. We look after number one, in much the same way as the other 27 sovereign countries do, and the net result is long-winded discussions with uneasy compromises and unhealthy alliances.
That is impractical and unsustainable.
The EU is never going to reform its headlong rush towards closer union, despite our vetoes and opt-outs. We had those before, and, as I recall, some fancy foot work was done when it came to signing up to previous treaties which fundamentally changed our relationship with the EU at which point we were supposed to have a referendum. Not surprisingly, this didn't happen.
Yes, this is my opinion, but it's based on some rhetorical questions:
Will the UK adopt the Euro?
Will the UK join Schengen?
Will the UK agree to much larger EU budgets and the EU taxing citizens directly?
Will the UK accept EU control over foreign policy and defence?
Will the UK cede sovereignty to become a "state" in the United States of Europe?
An EU army? Of course not, they said, but they were wrong as that's being discussed now.
Here are some less emotive and actual examples of how member states in the EU work for their benefit but to the detriment of others.
When Greece applied to join the Euro, Goldman Sachs fudged the figures so they joined at a far higher rate than was tenable. This was known before the crash in 2008, but nothing was done. As a result of the EU wanting, no, needing to keep everyone in the Euro, Greece received massive bailouts and agreed to austerity beyond our wildest dreams. Net result, 54% youth unemployment.
Spain, Italy and Portugal are on a knife edge financially.
Last year, Merkel opened the floodgates to immigrants. Why? Because Germany desperately needs fresh blood, workers who will pay tax and support their ageing population. But look at how this affected Turkey, Greece and Hungary... In desperation, Hungary built a fence and threatened to shoot people who crossed - not the best advert for the EU and free movement! Germany is the strongest member of the EU so fudges needed to happen: Turkey was offered a load of money and the promise that their EU membership application would be expedited but that has stalled with Erdogan's coup and now he's threating to open the floodgates...
https://thewire.in/174035/turkey-president-tayyip-erdogan-criticises-german-populism-after-merkel-shift-on-eu-membership/
BTW the reason Germany welcomed immigrants is exactly the reason the UK needs immigration.
This isn't going to go or end well, the question is whether Brexit will provide the shake-up the EU desperately needs.
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We don't need to join the euro, we don't need to join schengen. Europe has tolerated our constant separate needs for as you pointed out a long time, this would explain why they frankly don't care about us now that we have thrown that all back in their face and think to hell with our trade talks.
The german immigration scenario is something that Merkel has said she would repeat and TBH I totally understand why she did it, although it wasn't without its problems. As for the Turkey situation I worry that could worsen with time.
The financial aspects re: greece and the med countries is a big concern and sooner or later that could well blow but as it stands with the concessions we already had within our power I fail to see why voting brexit is considered a better plan. In an ideal world the EU would go through a big process of reform and everyone get everything tidied up and straightened out (and have an audit). I sadly agree this is likely to happen currently, especially with Junker around but I'd have more hope of that reform happening if we were in there and had someone (better than cameron) pushing for it.
I guess none of it really matters now anyhow.
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those that could not hear the music -Nietzsche
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 05-09-2017 10:36 AM |
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Matt
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Quote:
| Quin. wrote on 05-09-2017 10:36 AM
We don't need to join the euro, we don't need to join schengen. Europe has tolerated our constant separate needs for as you pointed out a long time, this would explain why they frankly don't care about us now that we have thrown that all back in their face and think to hell with our trade talks.
The german immigration scenario is something that Merkel has said she would repeat and TBH I totally understand why she did it, although it wasn't without its problems. As for the Turkey situation I worry that could worsen with time.
The financial aspects re: greece and the med countries is a big concern and sooner or later that could well blow but as it stands with the concessions we already had within our power I fail to see why voting brexit is considered a better plan. In an ideal world the EU would go through a big process of reform and everyone get everything tidied up and straightened out (and have an audit). I sadly agree this is likely to happen currently, especially with Junker around but I'd have more hope of that reform happening if we were in there and had someone (better than cameron) pushing for it.
I guess none of it really matters now anyhow.
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I saw this earlier and was thinking about it, especially the first paragraph 
I guess the alternative to Brexit would be/would have been to continue to be the grumpy pariah in the room, objecting to anything and everything which moved us any further towards closer union, until the EU got fed up and kicked us out, or found an alternative solution...
That would have left us inside, with a voice, but as the other points confirm, the EU has some fundamental issues which have the potential to break the whole thing up. How much longer will southern countries let their people suffer, to prop up a project which massively benefits the northern ones?
It's that alternative solution I'm in favour of, the question for me is how to get there and I see Brexit as a stick to poke the hornet's nest. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but there's far more talk about staying in the single market and customs union which is encouraging. And yes, that means freedom of movement which we need, same as Germany...
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| 05-09-2017 14:02 PM |
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Matt
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Yes, you're right on fuel. UK is pretty high up the scale but below Germany and not far off many other EU countries so I don't think that's the main reason.
(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax)
And keeping the focus on the EU, I seem to recall the UK was forced to impose 5% VAT on consumer utilities, gas, electricity and heating oil...
Fags? Are they still in the basket used to measure relative prices? With the way things are going, it would make more sense to include a gram of charlie 
Booze, yes I reckon.
But I don't think these things explains the huge differences in the cost of living.
London is 8th with an Index of 218, Liverpool is 51st with an Index of 129. Both in the same country with the same tax rates, but a very big difference.
Ahh. What about property costs?
Rising prices in London isn't because of the EU. It's our short sighted policies, partly councils being prevented from using RTB receipts on new social housing builds, but mainly central government's lack of investment in infrastructure (let's tax telecom firms, rather than encouraging them) and tax breaks for areas with high unemployment. Houses are cheap as chips there, why tell people to "get on their bike" and squeeze our cities?
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| 05-09-2017 18:04 PM |
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Quin.
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[Edited by Quin. on 05-09-2017 18:09 PM] Quote:
| Matt wrote on 05-09-2017 06:04 PM
Yes, you're right on fuel. UK is pretty high up the scale but below Germany and not far off many other EU countries so I don't think that's the main reason.
(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax)
And keeping the focus on the EU, I seem to recall the UK was forced to impose 5% VAT on consumer utilities, gas, electricity and heating oil...
Fags? Are they still in the basket used to measure relative prices? With the way things are going, it would make more sense to include a gram of charlie
Booze, yes I reckon.
But I don't think these things explains the huge differences in the cost of living.
London is 8th with an Index of 218, Liverpool is 51st with an Index of 129. Both in the same country with the same tax rates, but a very big difference.
Ahh. What about property costs?
Rising prices in London isn't because of the EU. It's our short sighted policies, partly councils being prevented from using RTB receipts on new social housing builds, but mainly central government's lack of investment in infrastructure (let's tax telecom firms, rather than encouraging them) and tax breaks for areas with high unemployment. Houses are cheap as chips there, why tell people to "get on their bike" and squeeze our cities?
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Totally agree, maybe i was wrong to say tax policies and should have just said "policies".
*this is one of those threads I really should go back to when i have more time to read it properly and digest what is being said, I don't have quite the time to give it the considered responses it merits atm.
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those that could not hear the music -Nietzsche
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| 05-09-2017 18:06 PM |
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Quin.
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[Edited by Quin. on 05-09-2017 18:37 PM] Quote:
| Matt wrote on 05-09-2017 02:02 PM
I saw this earlier and was thinking about it, especially the first paragraph
I guess the alternative to Brexit would be/would have been to continue to be the grumpy pariah in the room, objecting to anything and everything which moved us any further towards closer union, until the EU got fed up and kicked us out, or found an alternative solution...
That would have left us inside, with a voice, but as the other points confirm, the EU has some fundamental issues which have the potential to break the whole thing up. How much longer will southern countries let their people suffer, to prop up a project which massively benefits the northern ones?
It's that alternative solution I'm in favour of, the question for me is how to get there and I see Brexit as a stick to poke the hornet's nest. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but there's far more talk about staying in the single market and customs union which is encouraging. And yes, that means freedom of movement which we need, same as Germany...
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Interesting point, although my personal preference for reform would have been from within the EU and building a consensus which with careful politiking we would have been able to and were on the way at some points to achieving, however we have over the last 2 governments dealt with Europe in about as bad a way as could be done, not just the EU but the European parliament and also at national level. When you have someone like a Nick Clegg available to you who is multilingual and respected on the continent and instead you have Cameron blundering around and now Johnson as foreign secretary it becomes much harder. Who knows, maybe you are right and Brexit offers a chance to reset the whole program but I don't see it happening within the next 15-20 years.
But again, this is all a guess!
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those that could not hear the music -Nietzsche
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| 05-09-2017 18:19 PM |
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Quin.
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Location: london
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[Edited by Quin. on 07-09-2017 11:44 AM] Surprise sur-fucking-prise... So the Lords have accused Theresa may and David Davis of Cherrypicking their constitutional report to make it look like they agreed with them when it actually had serious doubts:
Lords have accused Theresa May and David Davis of “selectively” quoting from their inquiry report and claiming it endorsed their Brexit legislation, when actually the study raised major concerns.
Peers on the Constitution Committee said they had in fact called for a “number of key limitations” to be placed on the legislation.
The Independent has revealed how Ms May will allow more time for MPs to scrutinise the Bill to be debated by MPs in the Commons on Thursday amid fears it grants ministers sweeping powers to alter other laws.
The Constitution Committee’s previous report published in March has been cited by Ms May and Brexit Secretary Mr Davis as backing for the powers granted to ministers in the EU (Withdrawal) Bill, previously called the Repeal Bill.
But Baroness Taylor of Bolton, Chairman of the Committee, said: “The EU (Withdrawal) Bill represents an extraordinary transfer of legal powers from Parliament to the Government, without the additional oversight we recommended.
“We believe this will create very real difficulties for Parliament in fulfilling its constitutional role to scrutinise this Bill.
“We acknowledge that the Government needs significant powers in order to deliver legal certainty after Brexit. However, we warned the Government that such powers must come with tougher parliamentary scrutiny mechanisms and we are disappointed that we have not only been misquoted by the Government, but that our key recommendations have been ignored.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-david-davis-brexit-powers-quote-cabinet-ministers-report-constitution-committee-lords-a7933566.html
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those that could not hear the music -Nietzsche
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| 07-09-2017 11:43 AM |
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but we are "allegedly" such a rich country but seemingly the most expensive too...
