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Nick Rockliffe
Once you've had nick, you will want more.......!
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 18268 - Threads: 738
Location: farnham, what what what!
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| Shaf De Bass wrote on 05-07-2012 04:31 PM
I'm definitely not a historian of any sort. Although I do now understand why many people do study history before converting to law. It's highly advantageous in some areas! As well as history I've had to do a crash course in economic theory and development economics in order to gain a full understanding of what I'm currently researching - having absolutely no economics background whatsoever it's been a challenge to say the least!
In an attempt to simplify my point, what I tried reiterate, possibly not in the most coherent way, is that 'knowledge is key'. In order for a professional to be considered a professional they need to know and understand more than others about something - otherwise why would we pay someone to do something we can easily work out and do ourselves?
With the advances in technology and media which enable us to share knowledge much quicker and easier, the 'monopolistic' features of some professions (due mostly to knowledge) should manifest themselves to a lesser degree. Those which require more delicate hands-on experience and relate to life or death situations are an exception to this, as mentioned earlier.
The question is whether the knowledge is actually as accessible and comprehensible to everyone as it should be? Indeed we have access to a lot more information, but too much information is not necessarily a good thing.
This can be linked directly to the discussion about access to education. If we accept that everyone, albeit through loans, can access the higher education system in the UK, after education experience is required - experience is gained in many professions from internships, many spanning for a number of months, many unpaid. Some fortunate people have funding so they can work for free/peanuts for a year or two. Many other don't. These are examples of the kinds of barriers which will continue to define who has the knowledge and experience - and who will need to pay for it.
So in summary, whilst the access might in theory be there, barriers exist which serve to maintain a division between those who are equipped to serve, and those who will need to pay for services. Bourgeoisie/proletariate/etc.
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hehe. You did a fine job of explaining first time round  I still think what we have both said is closer than you may think but with the difference of one factor. The Limitation of the concept of money.
I'm in the process of my own study in the history of Economics but instead of taken the historian approach where you analysed lots of small little individual bits, I applied the holistic approach and looked at the bigger picture. From my first observations was the symmetry in the principles of how economics works (as if it was a living/evolving organism) to Ecology. However, as economics is not part of the complex machine that is nature, it surely has to be a simplified version of Ecology? (A bit like a computer is a simplified version of the brain but on capable of understanding two numbers - 0 & 1)
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otherwise why would we pay someone to do something we can easily work out and do ourselves?
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I love this question as it is one that has been pumping my cerebral juices for over 2 years now. With every cloud has a silver lining! - Despite my health being at its worst over the last few years meaning I had to give up the traditional 9-5 concept of working, I have had to recall "my inner child" and empower myself by learning to become self sufficient and I found my need for "experts" diminishing. (Because much like a child I do not have the money/income to pay for it).
So why would we pay for something we can easily do ourselves? Surely we do that every day when we buy a loaf of bread, eggs, vegetables as the very basics. Then we buy our clothes right through to the more slightly more complexed to buy our homes.
Having had to spend the majority of the last 2 years and much of the last 13 years having to adapt outside our collective way of living I started to become very frustrated about all the simple things the limitations of the money system denied me. I wanted to grow my own vegetables but don't have a garden and can't afford any land for example .
The drive went on to become more self sufficient and all of a sudden my natural instinct wanted and was begging me to do more things for myself and this manifested into things like wanting to make my own soaps, general cleaning products, shampoo's, skin creams etc and so on right through to wanting to build my own home (every time I was in a place of clear natural surrounding I would form visions of self sufficient communities and I just how naturally right I felt inside was immense). However when returning to the flat I go from feeling empowered to feeling the very basics of my existence is being denied. Mainly because I had the knowledge to do it and despite having the time also, the practicality in the world as a whole was not there to do it.
(I wont go on but a link to follow if the line of conversation interests you - With this feeling I started to put into prospective about the rate of protest all over the world and it really wasn't hard to see why people were so angry or why extremist felt they needed to put planes through buildings etc).
So moving from the basics of what we could do for ourselves to what we still largely consider specialist professions such science & medicine. I did post this on another thread but for your benefit;
After my second Operation (for cronhs) in 2010, my symptoms returned within a matter of months and after a few months returning to our traditional concepts of work they start to become intrusive again exhibiting the very same symptoms as I did in the months leading to the operation (depsite the infected area being removed and my inflammatory and chemo-therapy medication being doubled).
I started to get very frustrated that despite all this technology we had and the sheer number of "experts we had in the world", and taking into consideration as to how serious my situation was (After the last operation not only did my lungs collapsed I have been told that if I get to a point where I need another Op they wont be able to re-attach the bowel and the chances of me serving the op itself are not good) I was still not be given access to these "specialists".
Being in possession of my own full medical records I opened them up and started from birth right through the the most recent page. The very first thing that angered me the most was that despite being under the care of over a half a dozen of specialists (one of them regarded as one of the best in my condition the NHS has btw) in my life time I did not see the question "why do his symptoms never go" once! I then started to look at the "text book" teachings of my condition and treatment and despite my many different test results what was happening was defying the principles of what the "text book" teachers us but yet they still continued to apply treatment/tests which would apply in the event the "text book" principles applied.
So after a few months hardcore studying I had 0 additional logical/concious leads at at square 1. Left with only my instinct, what my body was telling me I had only what I can call a gut feeling this was to do with my brain chemistry & the psychological triggers as well as natural environment. Using the internet within a about a week I self diagnosed myself on what I had found.
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Summary of my self diagnosis; Unbalance of Serotonin and Dopamine Levels.
Red Flags on highly probable known psychological conditions - Depression & Positive Schizophrenia.
Possible unknown/unproven psychological conditions - Concious Schizophrenia
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I then spent a few weeks trying to find some case studies on the links of brain chemistry, depression and their links to conditions such as mine from this point It was getting easier and easier as everything started to fall in place and each question being answered in perfect sequence.
My search for case studies only bought 1 case which was pretty much identical to mine and this was the USA. The patient (a 44 year old male with a history of illness almost identical to mine) was taken of all his traditional cronhs medication and was put on some rather heavy serotonin repressors (anit-depressents as they are known - 150mg from memory).
Not wanting to give up this empowerment of doing things for myself, I made the decision to put myself through my own human testing stage and stopped all my traditional cronhs medication including the chemo drugs. I made an appointment with my GP with the intent to get him to sign the piece of paper I needed to get access to the drugs (I only asked for 20mg in strength as I thought 150 was excessive). Despite being told that it would take about 2 - 4 weeks for these tablets to take effect, within 6 hours of my first tablet I felt the whole of my brain chemistry change, all the anxiety I had always felt (from childhood) when around people in general (the more the person meant to me the bigger anxiety). In only a few days my physical symptoms such as passing loose stool up to 20 times a day to more solid passings about 3 times per day eventually sometimes going a whole day without having to pass stool for a whole day \0/ (this is all in the last 4 - 6 weeks btw).
What did I take from all this? I am confident when I say I honestly don't think there is one "Job" in this world today that I am not capable of doing . With the experience of my self diagnosis this told me that I alone, "a laymen" achieved what not only 1 "specialist" but over half a dozen couldn't and they are now in the process of learning from me and my knowledge and insights! I think the best way to summarise my conclusion is something I said in a chat with a friend of mine who is training to be a solicitor; "hippies changed the world whilst the solicitors did the paperwork"
This brings us on to education (I'm nearly finished btw lol) and the limitations you speak of which come down to one thing "money". When were children we spent years utilising a time we most powerful by learning all the basics of skills which would serve as a stepping stone to do what ever we wanted and as time progresses and we get older our education system concentrates on the eventual goal of you becoming a "specialist" in one skill set. Is this because when we get older we become less efficient to learn by nature? I don't agree with this at all! So at present it seems to me that our current educational structure is based upon us de-evolving instead of maintaining evolution and progress. Look at how we still maintain what I think (may be wrong on this minor point) our very first concept of teaching in formal education, the class room & text book. Why teach a child about the culture of another country from a book with words and pictures when we have the technology to serve us to take them there and learn via practicality - true knowledge is experience.
So how does the money system do this? We'll it dictates whom has access to evolve (which is a human right).
My overall point I guess is that all the issues and problems from the questions we ask such as the OP comes down to Concious Mind Vs Sub Concious mind. Our concious mind only allows us to live in the past or the future and today's world is concious minded where as the sub-concious can only live in the here and now which is the mentality we need to achieve our collective goal "peace on earth" Here are two audio poems I wrote/produced on this very battle which may help bring further understanding at what I am getting at (Have to be listened to in order)
And reference my views on money as a limitation. Here is a short 12 minute film you may find very interesting if you have yet to discover it
: The Psy-Ential Mix : BeatNik Live @ EMC2 March 2012: Availabe now OnDemand :
Exclusive to PsyJuiceUK
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 06-07-2012 14:02 PM |
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Nick Rockliffe
Once you've had nick, you will want more.......!
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 18268 - Threads: 738
Location: farnham, what what what!
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Quote:
| Lozz wrote on 06-07-2012 03:11 PM
Looking at it another way it took 20 million hippies acting together to stimulate change in the world, but they still needed a solicitor to make it happen.
(And those hippies eventually went back to their own jobs, opened health food shops, or became bond salesmen when tie-dyed sarongs went out of fashion.)
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Looking that at the other way round. Hippies didn't need or want the solicitors. The paperwork was a requirement of the solicitors superiors- the select few of "power" of a monetary system.
And I disagree, it was not the hippies that went back to their jobs, opened health shops etc. The hippies stayed around and basked in their glory by listening to good tunes and having a joint. It was their children who got jobs and open up stores but again only because those who control the "power" of the monetary system demanded it.
Lets have a quick think about where those with the "power" are now? Sacked, shamed, in court, prison, shamed and miserable and getting weaker and weaker as each day passes
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| 06-07-2012 15:29 PM |
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spencer
Registered: Mar 2003
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[Edited by spencer on 06-07-2012 15:35 PM]The thing is Nick, I am happy for you and your story, but the fact is, you diagnosed and solved your problem because you are uniquely motivated. IE if you get it wrong your health suffers, and you know the case inside out (if you pardon the expression  ). Also, all this research you did, how long did it take? With all the best will in the world, no specialist is going to be able to take that long on just you, as nobody else would get treated. There are limited resources available.
To extrapolate this to you being able to do 'anything' is a leap to far I think. For one, would you have the same motivation to be an architect? I don't mean any disrespect by that, by the whole self sufficient, everyone can do anything line is utopian. Shaf mentioned plumbing and electricity as example where people can look up how to do simple tasks. Which is true, but complex jobs take time and also the time to research. Where does this time come from exactly? Were you off work so had the luxury of all this time to look into your own case?
I am not arguing that people have to find one thing, and only ever do that. As I said, I work in computing. That involves deeply technical stuff (sending hex code to a cashbox to operate it) troubleshooting, and training, where I have to coach all manner of people and impart knowledge in a very easy to understand way. I also loved French and German at school and considered something to do with that. So I have a variety of things I can do. But I am not about to launch myself as an architect because of 'how hard can it be'. With things like that as well, you have to have a 'feel' for creativity, not just know the rules of how to construct things.
Oh, and the line about the computer being a simple brain is not quite right, just IMO. I studied Computer Science and modules in AI and Cognitive Psychology. The reality is, they have many theories about what the brain is, but they still don't know exactly...after decades of research and advances in medical science. A computer is just a very quick calculator, and any brain like symptoms are the result of imposing neural networks and learning mechanisms on it.
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| 06-07-2012 15:34 PM |
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Nick Rockliffe
Once you've had nick, you will want more.......!
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 18268 - Threads: 738
Location: farnham, what what what!
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[quote]spencer wrote on 06-07-2012 03:34 PM
Good stuff dude The questions you asks are ones I have asked myself already.
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The thing is Nick, I am happy for you and your story, but the fact is, you diagnosed and solved your problem because you are uniquely motivated. IE if you get it wrong your health suffers, and you know the case inside out (if you pardon the expression ). Also, all this research you did, how long did it take? With all the best will in the world, no specialist is going to be able to take that long on just you, as nobody else would get treated. There are limited resources available.
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Yes I was uniquely motivated and that is the key where I hi-lighted true knowledge is experience. But there are millions of people out there like me with the same motivation. Even those who don't suffer intrusive medical symptoms still have the motivation to understand the inner workings of your body - in fact what more motivation do you need than understand your very physical being?
Also don't discount how my own personal problems are wide spread and shared in characteristics with 1000's of other conditions and therefore can now be applied outside my individual being to others.
How long did this research take? As said, so far a few months - not long really is it The limitations you speak can be easily explained reference comments I made reference the Monetary system If the NHS were not confided by money then I would still be waiting after 2 years and counting to go on the "patient specialists" program.
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To extrapolate this to you being able to do 'anything' is a leap to far I think. For one, would you have the same motivation to be an architect? I don't mean any disrespect by that, by the whole self sufficient, everyone can do anything line is utopian. Shaf mentioned plumbing and electricity as example where people can look up how to do simple tasks. Which is true, but complex jobs take time and also the time to research. Where does this time come from exactly? Were you off work so had the luxury of all this time to look into your own case?
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I appreciate why I would be doubted, it is a very bold statement and not one I make likely however I still stand by it. Would I find the same motivation to become an architect? Did you read the comments of my need/want to build not only my home my own community! And is an architect really as specialist as we perceive? I already have 90% of the skills I need to that job and would argue I had 50% of them when I was 8 and building bases and tree houses .
Where does the time come from? I asked this question for a while and looking at the structure of today's world I just couldn't find the answer and concluded I am asking the wrong question. So I changed the question, where is the time taken from? And as in my OP, the monetary system. 8 hours per day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year until you retire, shit yourself and die
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I am not arguing that people have to find one thing, and only ever do that. As I said, I work in computing. That involves deeply technical stuff (sending hex code to a cashbox to operate it) troubleshooting, and training, where I have to coach all manner of people and impart knowledge in a very easy to understand way. I also loved French and German at school and considered something to do with that. So I have a variety of things I can do. But I am not about to launch myself as an architect because of 'how hard can it be'. With things like that as well, you have to have a 'feel' for creativity, not just know the rules of how to construct things.
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I think maybe the perception on how deeply technical these things appear are because we have spent so much time dedicating yourself to 1 thing so when it comes to something new having been conditioned for so long, the task of the new subject becomes more daunting. However don;t forget you once knew nothing about the task you are already advanced in and despite the female of the species claims, we can all multi-task lol. I guess it will come done to whether there is a limit to our brains capabilities however I subscribe to the notion that they infinite.
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Oh, and the line about the computer being a simple brain is not quite right, just IMO. I studied Computer Science and modules in AI and Cognitive Psychology. The reality is, they have many theories about what the brain is, but they still don't know exactly...after decades of research and advances in medical science. A computer is just a very quick calculator, and any brain like symptoms are the result of imposing neural networks and learning mechanisms on it.
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I don't underestimate computers and in fact only last month? I watched the video of the women who was paralysed from the neck down, pick up a glass of water to drink for the first time with a robot arm operating under her brains instructions. I will be honest and say when I saw the video of this I cried with happiness, it was remarkable but then I felt sadness which was due to the fact that when I considered the world continue in its montary system today how many of those who need this technology actually get it in the next 100 years? Balance of probability? A hand full at best 
But despite the awsumness of computers and their complexity when you break it down as you have done but when we look at them with the holistic approach they still operate from two basic functions (0n and Off).
Technology is a great subject and I have so much to say about it and now knowing more about your knowledge and insights I want to chat more But dont want to hi-jack the OP in this thread. My brain is fried now as I am sure you can understand But I will start a thread next week which will cover what this has opened and give you a shout when I do \0/
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| 06-07-2012 16:41 PM |
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![[HarderFaster] - Work Hard, Play Harder!](/images/mainbanner_top1.gif)
Another film I am working on btw and hopefully there will be some short clips until the grand finale around this time next year 
Good thing I never got my "toy chucking arms" out then 
